I just came from the range. Drilling works! Drill here! Drill often! Wildcater is right, Keep the 284 cases @ 1.7 to 1.69! Had a few light primer strikes @ 1.68. Used a 29/64ths bit. Drill to .20 deep for my .4515 230grn Sierra’s.#8815. Giving me a 2.15 OAL. I would not drill any more then needed. It does anneal the case. medium crimp, no bullet jump, chambered and ejected maually just fine. 40grn of LIL Gun worked. but, 41 worked better with a tighter group. primers even looked lighter! go figure. beyond me! next, find out what 42-45grns looks like. Can anyone run these loads for me? 230grn FMJ, 42-45grns of Lil gun, CCI #34 primers. Thanks for all the help guy’s!!! This brings back the day’s of Hot Roding the small block Chevy!
Drilling cases isn’t an accepted practice… please don’t try this at home; full power loads could be dangerous.
Wildcatter and several members here have given you some good info if you read through the thread. Be careful, and approach experiments with respect for your safety and the safety of others. Be aware that what you post here may be misused by someone without the experience and understanding to duplicate your results safely.
Thanks Boomer! I should have put that disclaimer in myself! I have destroyed 60 cases trying to make this work. Drilling works if you are careful. BUT, Reaming works much better! Got a .452 reamer from forster and had the shaft turned to fit the cutting head on my power trimmer with excellent results. Nice even ledge at the seating depth all the way around. My guess is the next problem will be crimping, Which we have talked about here with several methods available….Please Don’t try this case thing unless you have been reloading for awhile. Thanks Again All!
I’d like to say right spot on, for the last two post. Thanks Boomer and Gun Nut. I myself would not ream cases without some sort of drill Jig to hold the reamer dead center of the case center line. I did described one type, using a FL 284 Sizer Die, there are many others… Gun Nut? What’s your thought about leaving the case alone and resizing the bullets instead. A Lee, Luber-Sizer cost less than $40 and Ebay or Guns America, etc., and might find them for considerably less. Wouldn’t this much less work? Just wondering what you may be thinking.. And as for speculation about the kill bullet, I think that Wildman Wildcatter is using Dilithium Crystals..wink
For what it’s worth, I did some playing with 200gr encapsulated SWC’s using LilGun.
43grs, avg fps 2483
44grs, avg fps 2495
45grs, avg fps 2542
46grs, avg fps 2587
I reconfigured the crimp so that it only crimped into the cannelure. This is a 200gr Barnes bullet that has been crimped and pulled. 2 strong whacks with the puller to get it out. All rounds feed flawlessly.
I’ll post the actual numbers from my last range visit later, but here’s the short version.
The crimp increased the velocity by about 100fps and improved the accuracy, these 200gr bullets were giving me ragged holes at 100yds.
The 275gr bullets with 42.8grs of Lil’Gun also improved. Running around 2070fps and 1.5″ groups.
The spread I loaded with AA1680 was a major surprise with the velocities running a little over 1600fps to 1800fps, the last 3 loaded to 100% case capacity.
No signs of pressure on any of the loads.
200gr Barnes 42.8grs Lil’ gun no secondary crimp 2414fps, light crimp 2475fps, heavy crimp 2564fps.
275gr Barnes 34,5grs Lil’ gun no secondary crimp 2050fps, light crimp 2093fps, heavy crimp 2128 fps.
275gr Barnes 39.2grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1708fps.
40.1grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1749fps
41.2grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1811fps (100% case capacity)
I repeat Gentlemen; most sooting usually is a function of not enough pressure. The question to ask, is why? Could be not enough powder, not enough bullet pull, or the powder burn rate is to slow, or the sum of all of these symptoms at the same time. Assuming everything else is safely reloaded to spec; these suggestions usually are the major culprits. Low pressures can cause the case not to seal in the chamber and can become so bad that the gases escaping down the sides of the case can cause the case to collapse from the side. I’ve never seen this in the 450, but it is always possible. A little sooting, at and around the case mouth is Normal and is seen in all rimless straight cases (45acp/9mm etc.). Using faster burning powders, ala, ‘lil gun/296 and others, usually keeps sooting to a minimum. AA1680, needs a stout crimp and allot of powder to seal properly, but then a little sooting can still be visible, but this should cause you no alarm and AA1680 has the additional benefit of driving the speeds up.
Something else about crimping vs. bullet creep, consider. Using a drill motor, I have chucked up the cutter of a hand held tubing cutter (every hardware store has them)and with a stone have nicely rounded off the sharp cutting edge. The cutter on the tubing cutter usually is held to the tool with a screw. Take the cutter out insert a longer screw; put a jam nut on the opposite side and you are now ready for the drill/lathe chuck. Any kind of stone will work; anything from one from the front yard or a chunk of cement, to something you buy from the hardware, just so long as it is on hard side. Now you have a nice little tool to roll a heavy crimp into the bullet at nearly any location you desire (Because we head space on the case mouth, you must stay well away from the case mouth. The crimp is best done towards the bullet base, but not on the base, bullet bases are critical to accuracy.) and is as good as any, so called standard roll crimp, something we cannot use at our case mouths. It will very slightly shorten the case length, so don’t get carried away. Keep the crimp fairly consistent, that is to say, location and pressure. Measure the final case length to see if you made it too short or have not put on enough crimp. Pull a couple of bullets and look to see if you have dented the bullet sides, you actually want this denting. This type of crimp is particularly useful when using solids. I put a groove into the solid at the spot I want to roll the crimp into, using this method. Lead based bullets do not need such a grove, as the crimp squeezes into the side of the bullet. Those long heavy bullets seem to thrive with this method of crimping, of course I still tapper crimp. After a little practice The Side Roll Crimp, as I am wont to call it, is easy to do and to keep somewhat consistent and accuracy is not adversely affected, even if you aren’t particularly consistent, yea even sometimes accuracy is made better.
I just got back from the range and loaded up 8 (all the primers I had left) 405 gr loads. Using Lil’Gun, I started at 25.5 grs and in 1/2 increments went to 29 grs. I shot these at 100 yards. I borrowed a Chrono and here are the velocities that I got:
25.5 grs — 1387 fps
26.0 grs — 1435 fps
26.5 grs — 1498 fps
27.0 grs — 1499 fps (All three went into a 1 1/3 inch group)
27.5 grs — 1508 fps
28.5 grs — 1543 fps
29.0 grs — 1545 fps
I had no pressure signs. Primers looked OK. Sorry no Pics. This is 200 fps over the factory velocity for a Rem 405 in a 45-70. This bullet is not designed for high speed. I have shot them before in hot 45-70 loads and did have jacket separtation. Same thing happened with these. The bullet would mushroom and then split the jacket and the core would separate. Maybe a Speer 400 would work better.
I also chrono’d the 300 gr remington with 30.5 grs of Lil’gun and got 1857 fps. No jacket separation.
By the way — I also Chrono’d 240 gr hornady’s over 40.3 grs of H110 and got 200 fps variation in velocity. High was 2300 and low was 2100. Just like one of the previous posts said.
Your right about these bullets not being designed for the speeds you are at right now, to say nothing about the speeds yet to be achieved. I shoot some of these bullets out of a 458 win mag and sure enough, jacket separation is an issue. Bullet construction is always an issue. You must match the right bullet for your particular mission profile.
You might try these – http://www.castperformance.com/Categ…t=17&total=105 , (go one page up and down to see the entire line)
There are 14 bullets to choose from, 265gr-460gr, with 265gr-335gr .452” bullets. They are designed not to lead the bore at 3000fps and all are LBT flat points and the big deal is, they WILL NOT foul the Gas Tube. I wouldn’t recommend seating the middle of the bullet crimp grove to the case mouth, but seating the bullet out or short of the crimp grove (depending on your loading specifics) will do just fine. You won’t get jacket separation with these and the flat points will flatten anything you care to kill…anything/everything, period. They are shorter than the same weight copper jacket bullet (more powder) and competitively priced. The 265’s are reportedly at 2600+ fps and have killed numerous moose and two Bison that I know of, with efficient and very effective dispatch, with little (measured in mere feet) or no tracking at all. One gentleman is a shooter for the BLM and killed a bunch of cattle for them, one animal estimated at 2500lbs and reports absolutely in creditable results. Deer just don’t have a chance (Ok, a strange thing here, the non-expanding 45 cal bullets destroy way less meat than any 30 cal I ever used). Expansion is not necessary, as the Flat-Points disrupt much more tissue than an expanded bullet ever hopes too achieve and will penetrate where an expansion bullet can not venture. If you want cheap and these kinds of results, then go to 230gr ball bullets or better yet 230gr fmj flat points (I love the Hornady FMJ-FPs), and if you load SAFELY, some of you gentilmen will see 2800+fps with these. Don’t be concerned that the ball bullets will not expand, 45 cal is already a bigger diameter than a 30 cal gets after it expands, and will penetrate elephants, yes two…t