Yes, and the mag primers ignite 1680 much better, for all loads, Mag Primers are the only ones I’ll use, of course, if bench rest competition is the goal then maybe something else would be better. I want ignition at 90 below zero is my motto, as I sit here in Michigan watching a winter storm all day long, hunting in near white-outs, as we did today, tends to put a different prospective on things, but I digress. As 269/H110 (yep their data is interchangeable) is a little slower than lil gun, the speeds should run higher. AA1680 and fed-215 mag primers, which are hotter than any other mag primer, was the power of choice in the 45 Professional. Although we do have some limitations here, as the pro was .071 longer it has more case capacity and the 450b can’t take a large rifle primer. So, use sr mag primers and have a go at it. I’m sure that lil gun is just a bit fast, but if you’ve got a ton of it, then better to us it at some time or other. You’ve got a ways to go yet, because that two hundred grainer should start to approach 3000fps + or – some, in my mind, just watch the pressure signs.
How do you crimp an all copper bullet. I am trying to load some barns 275gr.
First I tried to load like the lead copper bullets.
1. Use expander die just enough to flair case mouth
2. Use seating die seat bullet at 2.26
3. Use taper crimp die set about 1/8 taper to the case
This causes the bullet to be loose but it will not come out kinda like a rimfire bullet.
The next attempt I removed the expander die and it had the same affect of a rimfire bullet.
The next attempt I removed the expander die and the taper crimp die.
The bullet looked good and seemed solid. I firmly taped it nose down on the table and no movement. Then I used the thunk test and it passed. Then I fed it out of a clip and the bullet jumped forward from 2.26 to 2.28
What am I doing wrong and how can I fix it.
Its getting frustrating.
I have had the same problem and mentioned it in a post a while ago. The problem is the mass of the bullet is great enough to be pulled from the case due to the bolt velocity during chambering. Much like a bullet puller would do. Currently I expand the case mouths for .452 bullets, but not for .451 or as with the Montana Gold — .4505. I do not flare the mouths. If you set up the Hornady dies correctly, the bullet should start straight. Maybe chamfer the inside of the case mouth, but only slightly because this is where the headspace is occurring. I crimp in the crimp groove at the rearmost portion — trying to minimize the jump. A draw back of seating the bullet out as far as we can, lessens the amount of bullet in the case — thereby reducing the amount of friction to move the bullet forward. When I use the 300 gr. Remington sized to .452 and seated to the crimp groove — I do not get any bullet movement. Just a note — while chambering factory loads to test magazines, ect. — even those bullets will move forward the 2nd and 3rd time they where chambered.
Try not to get frustrated, this is a labor of love, wanting something the factory can’t give us, accuracy, down range energy, and of the all mighty dollar and we like that, right?
Solids are a bit of a problem, but Siringo has it solved and is the easiest way to go.
A couple of other suggestions are to bond the bullet to the case. The military does this with all their small arms ammo for waterproofing and bullet pull purposes (they seal the primers too). They use a gum in the case mouths. The closest thing I have used is the gum product that tree doctors use, to scab over a severed limb; most garden stores carry it, better call ahead though. It is applied by using a pipe cleaner and better let the gum set up after crimping. I however am quite lazy and bell the cases as much as I can and then, after seating the bullet I use red Loc-Tite (Just because I have a ton of it around the shop, other colors/types may certainly be useful), and then crimp (With my hunting ammo, I seal the primers with the same product). By using a drop on a tooth pick, capillary action will suck the drop into the case and totally around the bullet, experiment with the size of the drop. There are some things to consider though. First you have to let the Loc-Tite dry, 24hrs, and second, because of the extra bullet pull you’ll have to back off of the powder some. BUT, and this is a big “but”, that extra bullet pull burns the powder so efficiently that it will allow you to use slower powders, thus lowering the pressures, thus allowing you to bring the pressures back up and thus you’ll see much higher speeds (‘lil gun is very useful and I’ve even burned blue dot very successfully, but if speed is the goal, slower powders are the trick. Keep the pressures safely up, if you don’t want to see sooting). Of course, safe reloading practices apply; sneak up on the powder charge, looking for pressure signs all along the way. All this is unnecessary on lead based bullets as enough tapper crimp can be applied, unless of course, you want to use the slower powders. The Loc-Tite trick seems to cause more bullet pull than even a roll crimp (something we can use on the 450), which is a really a good thing, in my view, that is, if you are watching for excessive pressure signs. One other problem is, with all that excessive belling, you may want to extend case life by annealing, I do this regardless. I myself do this by sinking my de-primed cases into a cake pan of ice water about half way up the case body (keeping the heat away from the bases as you could see case head separation, a bad thing), then with a torch, propane is fine, heat them up to red hot and then knock them over, the water will instantly cool the cases and bingo, annealed cases.
Regarding neck tension — I have been playing around with various techniques/bullets tonight and despite what I do, I still get some bullet movement upon chambering. The only exception is when a crimp groove is present to lock into. But even then, repeated chamberings came move the bullet forward.
However, an extra step that really helps to minimize this is to clean the inside of the case neck after the case has been sized and expanded. That will remove any trace of case sizing lubricant or powder residue that could lessen neck tension. Do this even after using a case polisher. I used denatured Alcohol on a swab. Also, depending on the bullet, I want to have between .002 and .003 inches of neck tension (inside case mouth is that much smaller the bullet).
I have done so much testing the past 2 days that my right hand is sore from screwing and unscrewing dies in and out of the press.
No mater what I do I can not keep the barns bullet from moving. I have done all that you listed above and more. I took cleaning the case one step farther, I used 150grit sandpaper to rough the inside of case just one turn not to remove much material, that helped a little but very little. I have been getting about the same neck tension as you Siringo so i increased it to .006 by using the taper crimp die before loading the bullet, but it was no help. The taper crimp can only kiss the brass or it will dent the barns bullets with decrease the neck tension.
The best results I have had came from peening the case around the bullet.
I got this idea from some 7.62×25 pistol bullets i have for my cz52. The casing has three peen marks half way down the neck I suspect to increase reliability for the submachine gun the round was made for. For people that are unfarmiliar with the 7.62×25 it is a bottle neck pistol bullet.
Following the idea of the peen marks I took a small nail set and put 3 peen marks on one case and 4 on another. The first cartridge started at 2.262
after the first chambering it jumped to 2.267 second 2.269 third 2.270 fourth 2.271 faith 2.274 sixth 2.277 The second cartridge with 4 peen marks started at 2.260 after the first champering it went to 2.263 second 2.264 third2.265 fourth 2.265 faith 2.266. The down side to this is that I have no way to be consistent with the depth and location of the dents. If someone knows how please speak up.
The last attempt to decrease bullet pull I used was to set the bullet deeper to catch the crimping groove. I didnt want to increase the distance the bullet had to jump to get to the lands or decrease case capacity but Im at the end of my ideas. I seated the bullet to 2.215. The outside of the case mouth before the bullet was .476 after bullet seated .479 after taper crimp .476 . The first chambering it went to 2.225 second 2.231 third 2.240.
As a reference I used a factory round and tested it too. It started at 2.234
after the first chambering it was 2.242 second 2.250 third 2.258. about the same as when I seated it to the crimp grove.
I then checked case capacity with H110 with the 275gr Barnes set to a depth of 2.215. First i weighed the case with seated bullet 445.7gr then added the powder 484.6gr. This gave me a difference of 38.9gr and confirmed after powder measured alone.
Holy Cow, you’re doing good work and great pics, a closer, close-up would be better, for a more thorough assessment. Place the cartridges touching each other with the powder weights still visible, then go ahead and zoom on in, let’s have another look at dem-dar beauties, if it will focus… As I can see the shadow ring around the primer, there certainly is no serious flatting of the primer. It’s true, sooting is a function of too little bullet-pull (meaning not enough crimp) or to slow of a powder or not enough of the correct powder (the usual culprit). After you ring out ‘lil gun, my suggestion is to go to H-110 or 296 (their data is interchangeable) and then onto my favorit AA1680. I can’t quite read the speeds, but from the looks of that shooting secession, I sure don’t want you angry at me!
All you guys need to sacrifice a case to find out for yourselves the max internal powder capacity of the case, with the powders and bullets you want to use. The following hints are a real aid in load development and won’t allow you to over fill the case. My method is to drill a 1/4” hole through the primer pocket, cleaning up the burs. Seat and crimp the bullet to the desired depth & OAL, on an empty case. Filling that case with powder through the drilled out primer pocket until the powder is humped up, on the rim face. Now, placing your finger over the full primer hole and the bullet facing the floor, tap the side of the case with a kitchen knife to settle the powder (maybe a dozen or so taps). You’ll see the powder has settled down into the case. Refill with powder again, until the powder is on the top of the rim. After doing this many times and no more powder will go into the case and the primer pocket is completely full and slightly on the rim face, weigh that particular charge. That powder weight represents the perfect compressed load and is the max load you could achieve with the chosen bullet and OAL. Not that-that load is safe, NOT AT ALL, but it is the stopping point, if you make that far in your choices. Some of the powder/bullet/OAL’s choices will allow you to reach that amount of compression without pressure signs and you won’t be wondering if you have too much bullet compression.
I just got back from the range and loaded up 8 (all the primers I had left) 405 gr loads. Using Lil’Gun, I started at 25.5 grs and in 1/2 increments went to 29 grs. I shot these at 100 yards. I borrowed a Chrono and here are the velocities that I got:
25.5 grs — 1387 fps
26.0 grs — 1435 fps
26.5 grs — 1498 fps
27.0 grs — 1499 fps (All three went into a 1 1/3 inch group)
27.5 grs — 1508 fps
28.5 grs — 1543 fps
29.0 grs — 1545 fps
I had no pressure signs. Primers looked OK. Sorry no Pics. This is 200 fps over the factory velocity for a Rem 405 in a 45-70. This bullet is not designed for high speed. I have shot them before in hot 45-70 loads and did have jacket separtation. Same thing happened with these. The bullet would mushroom and then split the jacket and the core would separate. Maybe a Speer 400 would work better.
I also chrono’d the 300 gr remington with 30.5 grs of Lil’gun and got 1857 fps. No jacket separation.
By the way — I also Chrono’d 240 gr hornady’s over 40.3 grs of H110 and got 200 fps variation in velocity. High was 2300 and low was 2100. Just like one of the previous posts said.
Your right about these bullets not being designed for the speeds you are at right now, to say nothing about the speeds yet to be achieved. I shoot some of these bullets out of a 458 win mag and sure enough, jacket separation is an issue. Bullet construction is always an issue. You must match the right bullet for your particular mission profile.
You might try these – http://www.castperformance.com/Categ…t=17&total=105 , (go one page up and down to see the entire line)
There are 14 bullets to choose from, 265gr-460gr, with 265gr-335gr .452” bullets. They are designed not to lead the bore at 3000fps and all are LBT flat points and the big deal is, they WILL NOT foul the Gas Tube. I wouldn’t recommend seating the middle of the bullet crimp grove to the case mouth, but seating the bullet out or short of the crimp grove (depending on your loading specifics) will do just fine. You won’t get jacket separation with these and the flat points will flatten anything you care to kill…anything/everything, period. They are shorter than the same weight copper jacket bullet (more powder) and competitively priced. The 265’s are reportedly at 2600+ fps and have killed numerous moose and two Bison that I know of, with efficient and very effective dispatch, with little (measured in mere feet) or no tracking at all. One gentleman is a shooter for the BLM and killed a bunch of cattle for them, one animal estimated at 2500lbs and reports absolutely in creditable results. Deer just don’t have a chance (Ok, a strange thing here, the non-expanding 45 cal bullets destroy way less meat than any 30 cal I ever used). Expansion is not necessary, as the Flat-Points disrupt much more tissue than an expanded bullet ever hopes too achieve and will penetrate where an expansion bullet can not venture. If you want cheap and these kinds of results, then go to 230gr ball bullets or better yet 230gr fmj flat points (I love the Hornady FMJ-FPs), and if you load SAFELY, some of you gentilmen will see 2800+fps with these. Don’t be concerned that the ball bullets will not expand, 45 cal is already a bigger diameter than a 30 cal gets after it expands, and will penetrate elephants, yes two…t
I shot my first rounds of reloaded 450BM today. I started at 36.5gr of h110 and went to 40.6gr h110. The over all was 2.06 with hornady 240gr .452 xtp/mag. I had heavy sooting of the cartridge until I reached 40gr, but the only one that had no sooting was the highest load of 40.6gr. The last 4 that I shot had the same point of impact as the factory rounds, 40gr, 40.2gr, 40.4gr, and 40.6gr. The last 4 were also 1.1min of angle.
All of my shots were at 100 yds.
I could not be happier. My next batch will be 40.6gr.
For the most part what Randall is saying is true, buuttt, let me start by saying that the sooting (as described here in these posts ) is a very well recognized symptom of the 450b case not sealing in the chamber, because of low pressures, especially in the AR. Also, pressure signs with this cartridge, using the AR platform, are actually indeed very good indicators for deciding when to stop, one just cannot automatically discount Bernoulli’s Theorem and conventional wisdom does not necessarily apply, it does, but at much different pressure levels, that one might see with say, a necked cartridge. I repeat, I have never, nor has the vast amount of users of the 45 Pro, ever broken a bolt, using this cartridge/AR combo and this with primers and other indicators, that would scare anyone to death, but don’t ever load to this extent, ever, got it? If kinetic energy performance is the goal then back off the powder when standard signs start to show up.
BTW, on another note, how about that report about using resized 458 bullets in the 450b. What does that do for the Nay-Sayers who, out of ignorance, say that there are not enough bullets in the 451 dia. (golly, there are 451 bullets for every mission anyone can think of and they will penitrate or not, depending on your mission/choise, anything you want), compared to the 458 barrels, that can only use the limited 458 dia rifle bullets? We not only can use every and all Standard 45 cal bullets, regardless of dia, but we can use them with perfect safety and accuracy, and this is the big one, without changing the Terminal Effects of those Big 458 bullets one little bit, nada! One might expect jacket separation, followed by poor tissue penetration, but they’d be wrong. Question, what do you guys think the results will be, if one were to load 451 bullets into a case and barrel designed for a 458 dia? Humph, so much for the specious, crazy arguments, seen on some of the other boards. Now go teach them guys how you made a better dicision, with way more numerous options.
Just an update I called Hornady and talked to Mitch.
Nice guy and very helpful.
Confirmed all of my info and answered lots of questions.
He said H110 is the best powder and it is very close to the powder that they use in the factory ammo.
He also said that the 450bm should be loaded close to max published loads, because it seals the case to the chamber for better accuracy and smaller spread in fps.
I asked him about the 275gr Barnes and he said that the 300gr load data is the best to use. I kinda squeezed it out of him but he said i can load between the 250gr and the 300gr data but I must work it up and use a chronograph wile doing it.