I reconfigured the crimp so that it only crimped into the cannelure. This is a 200gr Barnes bullet that has been crimped and pulled. 2 strong whacks with the puller to get it out. All rounds feed flawlessly.
I’ll post the actual numbers from my last range visit later, but here’s the short version.
The crimp increased the velocity by about 100fps and improved the accuracy, these 200gr bullets were giving me ragged holes at 100yds.
The 275gr bullets with 42.8grs of Lil’Gun also improved. Running around 2070fps and 1.5″ groups.
The spread I loaded with AA1680 was a major surprise with the velocities running a little over 1600fps to 1800fps, the last 3 loaded to 100% case capacity.
No signs of pressure on any of the loads.
200gr Barnes 42.8grs Lil’ gun no secondary crimp 2414fps, light crimp 2475fps, heavy crimp 2564fps.
275gr Barnes 34,5grs Lil’ gun no secondary crimp 2050fps, light crimp 2093fps, heavy crimp 2128 fps.
275gr Barnes 39.2grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1708fps.
40.1grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1749fps
41.2grs AA1680 heavy crimp 1811fps (100% case capacity)
Keep the OAL’s as long as possible. The magazine will handle 2.260”, so with room for dirt and such, make the max OAL 2.250”, which will easily be achieved with the longer bullets, like with the pointed Barnes 275gr. and many others. Keeping the OAL at max length will lower pressures allowing you to increase powder volume, just don’t get crazy. The loads I’ve seen here for the 275’s are somewhat light, you should be able to up the speeds “at least” 200fps plus quite easily, try AA1680 to do so, which will also lower pressures, compared to H110/WW296 ( which work well for the lighter bullets-btw, the data for these two powders are interchangeable).
If you want to recover real world expanded bullets, use one gallon milk jugs, filled with water. I get mine from a milk bottler, for something in the $.015 area, in bags of 50. Attach three 2X6’s in a “U” fashion and line the jugs up. The 1911 with 45acp Federal Hydro-Shock expands as advertised and eats up four jugs. A 230gr hollow point (450b @2800fps) barely does one jug and explodes into thousands of little pieces, good for home defense. All bullets and pieces are very recoverable and comparable to whatever standard you want to use, let’s say you want to compare your load to a 45-70 or 338mag or whatever, go ahead, shoot them into the jugs, you will be totally surprised at the results.
Great information Wildcatter! I was beginning to think the 450B wasn’t such good choice for a relative newbee to reloading such as myself, but now I can see that this gun might be worth sticking with!
I’m still not sure I want to keep messing with the 284 cases, of the 200 I started out with I’ve only got about 60 left that I haven’t screwed up in one way or the other. I initially bough 200 rounds of factory ammo, of which I’ve fired about 150 and repeatedly reloaded, I think I’ll stick with them.
I still have a bunch of questions related to loading these things, regardless of the case, that I hope you might be willing to help with without giving away the keys to the castle, I’d like it handed to me on silver plater, but I’m new and I realize I still have to earn my spurs.
I’ve got about 150 Hornady 240 gr XTP/MAG Bullets. If I seat them to an OAL of 2.2″ I only have .166″ of bullet in the case. Is that okay?
I also have a butt load of Hornady and Zero 230 gr hollow points that I load for my 1911, it sounds like these hollow point pistol bullets should stay in the 1911 and I should invest in FMJ’s for the higher velocities of the 450B.
For powder I’ve got 4lbs of H110 and 1lb if IMR4227, am I barking up the wrong tree? My goal is two basic loads, a range round for punching holes in targets out to 200 yrds and a hunting round for punching holes in pigs. The H110 @ 38 grs has given me velocities around 2100 using the 240 and 230 gr bullets, but the accuracy sucks, I figure I can afford to play with those as target loads because they are relatively cheap, but I want to use Barnes X 250 gr 454 Casull or Barnes X 275 gr 460 S&W for hunting pigs and they are pricey bullets to be experimenting with. I’m hoping this is where you can save me some grief, will the 110 or the 4227 work or should I not bother playing with them? With the very long 275 gr barnes X the case is pretty much packed with 38 grs of H110 and an OAL of 2.225″. Can I get there from here?
I apprieciate the help, too bad you don’t live down the street!
Now, the 450b is directly based off the .284win., and thus, turning or reaming should not be an issue, but what to do in the mean time? First, assuming you have full length resized and then trimmed to the factory standard of 1.700” (plus nothing, minus .003” and use the order given – resize and then trim), load a dummy cartridge and try the “THUNKING” test. Pointing the barrel down “drop” your reload into the chamber, it better have a decided Thunking sound when the mouth of the cartridge hits the end of the chamber. If it does not, take safety precautions and again full length resize and re-crimp, the reloaded cartridge; it’ll go “THUNK” now! Second don’t worry about squeezing the bullet a little in the resized loaded case; the bullet is a little over sized and the barrels are ever so slightly undersized and the dies (assuming they were made right) will not over crimp the bullet, so as to let the mouth of the case go pass the end of the chamber (remember we have the same set of problems with the 45 ACP). With that in mind put on a heavy tapper crimp, “NEVER any kind of roll crimp”, into the case, enough so the bullet is visibly dented, again don’t worry about denting the bullet, in fact you want to see a slight dent (you wouldn’t have to do this if you had the bullet sealing gum that Lake City uses, but normally we don’t, so not to worry). This will not affect accuracy at all and will assure proper bullet pull, and will stop any bullet travel, in the case, that can occur in the shooting/cycling process and still yield minute of angle accuracy and better.
Now, what to do about over pressure signs? It is very normal for under pressured cases to kick the primer out first, before the case releases, thus a flat or detached primer. It is my opinion; you may be very much under pressured. Randal gave numbers that say 35,000 to 37,000 psi are dangerous pressures (based on the program Quick Load), nothing could be further from the truth (no offence Randal, also none of the bolt thrust formulas are accurate either, more on that latter). We normally load the 45 Pro to 60,000 psi with 230 ball or FMJ flat points my favorite. Yes, I know that the 458Socom and the 50Beo are loaded to the 35,000 psi area, but then again those great cartridges do not have the barrel thickness the 450b has in the chamber area. Here’s my example, a “Mountain Rifle”, bolt action weapon, chambered for the 284win case has a SAMMI spec in the area of 63,000 psi and has a barrel chamber diameter the same as the 450b. The other proof is Bushmaster told me that twice they loaded to these pressures and fired 6000 rds + each time with no ill effect and my friends and I load to these pressures and have done so for years, normally. So, why does Hornady load for 38,000 psi, as they have quoted? They tell me the Lawyers won or that they did not want to over stress their SST bullet, which is designed for magnum muzzle loader velocities of around 2000fps and would blow up on deer, like a varmint bullet would do, if you pushed them as we can actually do. My personal loads in the 450b, for the 250gr. bullet START at 2500fps and go up, but then who can afford those bullets, sold in twenty packs. I’ve tried the 200gr SST and compressed a load of 296 and achieved 2800fps, with only slightly flatting of the primers. If you need a pointed expanding bullet, Barnes makes excellent 200 & 275 grain varieties.
As for “Bolt Thrust” with these pressures (70,000psi +), Wayne State University’s Engineering Dept., in a published article, I forget which gun rag ran it now, actually ran “MEASURED” test, not calculated and found that at these increased pressures, the bolt thrust was just a little less that the .223 case and this because of a effect known as Bernoulli’s Theorem, which basically tells us that necked cartridges have way more bolt thrust than straight cases and all the bolt thrust formulas are based on those necked cases, hence not at all accurate for the 450b. My Buddies and I have never seen a bolt failure and don’t ever expect to and we only use, what you might call, max loads, we don’t think they are but others might and we’ve never had a problem and together we have maybe a million rounds down range or certainly many, many, 100,000’s at least.
My recommendations? Assuming you will take proper safety precautions and use great skill, use WW296 for the lighter 200 grain Barnes, which is a pointed-hollow point bullet and AA1680 for the Barnes 275 gainers, which is also a pointed-hollow point. But consider the Hornady 230 FMJFP, which the Flat Point will disrupt more tissue than an expanded bullet does. The flat point doesn’t really expand and will penetrate straight through an animal, as opposed to going squirrely, as is the case with many expanded bullets, on occasion, even to turning 90 degrees in side of flesh, been there, done that. Your loaded length of 2.1” is way short too, load the 230’s to 2.2” (but not much more, you still have to hang onto the bullet) or longer and the pointed bullets to 2.250”, max is 2.260″, but you do need some clearance in the magazine. AA1680 & 230’s will increase your speeds and lower your pressures and still yield 2800fps, which is more than enough for any animal on this planet, if FMJ’s are used. In fact this combo has twice been to the Cameroon’s and has dispatched Cape Buffalo and Elephant, with reported ease. Keep in mind that this is with a version that is .070” longer, the 45 Professional. The standard 230gr hollow pointers are cheap and because of these highly increased speeds just explode on anything, making them good for home defense.
No, about 2.1″ AOL. Just to where the groove in the bullet starts to hit the case. Don’t ask me why there, it just looked like a good spot, and it gives the roll crimp die a little something to work with.
Like I said, I’m winging this whole thing.
As far as the 284 cases, I’ve had no luck at all. I’ve sized them but I can’t get the case wall the right thickness. A .452 reamer takes to much and leaves a good size shelf down in the case. I’m sure there has got to be a way to make them work but I’m not patient enough.
I’ve just been reusing the brass from the factory rounds. Thank goodness for straight walls, the cases are holding up well.
Montana Gold has some .452 250 gr 45 Colt bullets for a reasonable price, I’ve been thinking about getting some of those, but so far between the Barnes X 250 and 275 gr HP bullets, the Hornady 230 and 240 gr HP bullets and the Rainier 250 TMJ bullets I,m just confusing myself trying to figure out the loads.